ESG’s Largest Champion Talks Tax Transparency And Reporting


Eelco van der Enden, the brand new CEO of the World Reporting Initiative, discusses the rising environmental, social, and governance panorama and why tax is a obligatory and essential a part of ESG reporting.

This transcript has been edited for size and readability.

David D. Stewart: Welcome to the podcast. I’m David Stewart, editor in chief of Tax Notes In the present day Worldwide. This week: tax and ESG.

Environmental, social, and governance efficiency, also referred to as ESG, has develop into more and more essential. Traders, workers, and the general public are eager about what corporations’ ESG actions appear to be and the transparency ESG reporting supplies. 

As multinationals broaden their ESG reporting, there have additionally been requires expanded transparency in tax reporting, particularly because it pertains to the social metric of ESG.

What does the intersection of tax and ESG appear to be? What sort of ramifications would elevated tax reporting transparency have?

Tax Notes contributing editor Nana Ama Sarfo will focus on extra about that in a minute. 

Later within the episode, we’ll have Tax Notes State columnist Steve Wlodychack focus on his article on current state passthrough entity tax laws.

However first, Ama, welcome again to the podcast.

Nana Ama Sarfo: Dave, thanks a lot for having me again.

David D. Stewart: Now, I perceive you latterly spoke with somebody about tax reporting and ESG. Might you inform us about your visitor and what you talked about? 

Nana Ama Sarfo: Sure, so I spoke with Eelco van der Enden, who’s the brand new CEO of the World Reporting Initiative (GRI). GRI is a world ESG normal setting group. It really produces the world’s most generally used ESG reporting requirements.

van der Enden, who took his put up in January, is a really thrilling alternative for CEO as a result of he’s a dyed-in-the-wool tax practitioner. He beforehand was a tax companion at PwC, and he helped write GRI’s reporting normal for tax, which is a public country-by-country reporting normal.

We spoke a bit about his imaginative and prescient for GRI. GRI approaches reporting from a stakeholder financial imaginative and prescient, which is that multinationals needs to be accountable to all stakeholders, not simply traders, but in addition their workers and the communities through which they function.

He mentioned why public tax disclosures are so essential in a stakeholder financial mannequin, and likewise developments he’s seeing within the tax reporting area like multinationals greening their tax reporting. He additionally talked about what’s at stake for multinationals in the event that they fail to be clear about their tax exercise, and in doing so, sort of lose the general public narrative.

David D. Stewart: All proper. Let’s go to that interview.

Nana Ama Sarfo: Eelco, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us on the podcast.

Eelco van der Enden: Thanks for having me.

Nana Ama Sarfo: Are you able to describe for our listeners, those that aren’t acquainted with the GRI, a bit of background about its sustainability reporting framework?

Eelco van der Enden: GRI was based in 1997 in america to supply companies with a framework of reporting requirements on social and environmental matters. In these days the place there was the large oil spill in Alaska, there was social unrest, and what worldwide accounting and monetary accounting requirements didn’t present for was a transparent framework to report one’s social and environmental endeavors in such a approach that it will create comparable information for wider society.

That, for GRI, is extraordinarily essential as a result of our objective is principally to supply assist for impression reporting, to have an open and clear dialogue on matters that have an effect on society as an entire. It is local weather, it’s socioeconomic cohesion, and all of the matters which can be aligned.

Why do we predict that is essential? As a result of the world doesn’t solely exist for capital markets and traders themselves, however it additionally exists for a broader humanity and humankind as it’s.

What GRI sometimes does, and what GRI supplies, is a framework for what the results are of enterprise endeavors in pursuing their methods on the surroundings and on society as an entire.

Now, what can we see in growth with regards to sustainability reporting? ESG and sustainability grew to become family definitions of late. There’s this dialogue round and in regards to the alphabet soup that there are such a lot of organizations coping with sustainability and ESG that there is no such thing as a clear image anymore as a result of it is muddled with these many, many acronyms.

Let me demystify the alphabet soup with regards to sustainability reporting. There are solely two normal setters that cope with ESG as a normal. That’s the Sustainability Accounting Requirements Board (SASB) that now has been integrated within the Worldwide Sustainability Requirements Board (ISSB), which is a sister group of the Worldwide Accounting Requirements Board beneath the umbrella of the Worldwide Monetary Reporting Requirements basis on one aspect.

On the opposite aspect, you’ve the European Monetary Reporting Advisory Group that’s answerable for setting ESG requirements and necessary sustainability requirements for Europe. They’ve this co-creation settlement with GRI.

What’s the massive distinction between them? That’s extraordinarily essential to know, particularly when it additionally involves tax, which is an S social matter in ESG.

To start with, ISSB is about monetary reporting. It is about monetary materiality. It’s supposed for traders and shareholders. It drives monetary data, the enterprise worth reporting of the reporting entity.

What’s the European initiative? What’s GRI all about? It’s what we name “double materiality.” It isn’t the monetary results of the reporting entity. No, it’s its impact on local weather and society, which has a distinct lens, however that is logic as a result of they’ve a distinct viewers they deal with.

GRI Europe is a wider viewers society, whereas the target of ISSB or SASB is traders.

Are these two competing forces? No, they aren’t competing forces. They strengthen one another. They need to drive in direction of a company reporting surroundings on a worldwide scale that’s based mostly on two pillars. Then you’ve an entire image the place you’ve the monetary pursuits and societal curiosity being reported on equal footing, whereby and solely then, it is possible for you to to assert that we’re shifting from a shareholder capitalistic-centric mannequin to a stakeholder capitalistic-centric mannequin.

What do I imply by that? I do not just like the phrase “capitalistic.” I like a “stakeholder-centric financial mannequin” as a result of that is the place we’re shifting to. In the event you wouldn’t have the two-pillar strategy with monetary and sustainability reporting at equal footing and equally essential, you can’t communicate of a stakeholder-centric financial mannequin.

Everybody agrees that monetary information is essential for traders. Therefore the introduction of necessary, worldwide accounting requirements for listed corporations to supply traders with comparable information. It was in these days of shareholder-centric mannequin, whereby the thought was that the only accountability of enterprise is making revenue on behalf of its shareholder. It’s completely fully logical to introduce necessary monetary reporting to allow these traders to make correct validated choices on comparable information.

If we now declare, as lately Larry Fink of BlackRock Inc. did, that we’ve to maneuver in direction of stakeholder-centric financial mannequin — and never solely BlackRock is claiming that, but in addition the World Financial Discussion board and Worldwide Enterprise Council — then will probably be very bizarre to not have a reporting normal that’s there to feed the wants of the society that the stakeholder-centric financial mannequin tries to assist.

You may’t have a stakeholder mannequin with out sustainability reporting on behalf of society. If reporting will be in contrast as a coin, these are the 2 sides: the monetary reporting and the sustainability reporting. That is precisely the second half, the sustainability reporting, that GRI does. It has accomplished so over the previous couple of years fairly efficiently.

Nana Ama Sarfo: About 5 years in the past the GRI board determined to create a public reporting framework for tax, which is named the GRI 207 normal. GRI 207 is essential as a result of it’s the first international reporting normal for country-by-country tax transparency. You co-wrote that normal if you have been a companion at PwC, so I’m hoping you could stroll us via that course of.

First, why did the GRI board determine that tax is essential for ESG reporting? What are a number of the most essential components of that normal, and why have been they included?

Eelco van der Enden: To start with, the initiative to draft a normal on tax was taken by U.S. personal fairness corporations. It was not nongovernmental organizations. It was U.S. traders that reached out to GRI to say that they wished to see extra detailed data on tax, as a result of it informed them one thing in regards to the threat urge for food, in regards to the high quality of the income themselves, and in regards to the hyperlink between the sustainability coverage corporations have and tax, whether or not there was a hyperlink in, let’s name it the administration of tax habits with regards to social matters.

There have been varied the explanation why these traders have been eager about getting extra data on the market. The requirements board of GRI, which is the group inside GRI that takes care of the usual setting and growth processes and the upkeep strategy of the requirements, determined to place collectively a neighborhood of specialists that grew to become the tax technical committee. I used to be kindly invited to affix that as a consultant of intermediates, on this case, the large audit corporations.

We began to debate some matters that we thought could be fascinating for a multi-stakeholder neighborhood to take discover of. Many mentioned that with such a delicate matter as tax, this may not be potential, however they have been individuals out of the tax communities that mentioned that.

Actually, one of many points is that I feel that many tax individuals oversensitivize tax as a subject. It isn’t that delicate. Actually, after a 12 months and a half, we have been accomplished, which is kind of quick, the place all individuals within the committee signed off. Then the primary draft was despatched for public session.

In December 2019 we got here out with it and the official launch was on the London Inventory Change in January 2020. We have been quite stunned by the voluntarily uptake of many, many giant multinationals to certainly embrace this normal.

Why is that this normal then so appreciated? As a result of it supplies a platform to supply comparable information. That is essential to traders. That is essential to society; that they will examine likes for like.

GRI is the world’s largest sustainability normal setter. It has been endorsed by the OECD and by the United Nations. Why ought to I not use the GRI 207 normal once I use GRI already for all the opposite issues that I am reporting?

There’s greater than 10,000 corporations that use GRI. The pickup has been fairly excessive already. Whereas the one 12 months that we principally ask, in case you are a GRI reporter, please begin utilizing 207 from 2021, which was final 12 months, however already earlier than many began to make use of them.

Additionally, if you have a look at or have discussions with boardrooms, with audit committees, with CFOs, as a result of it’s a actual normal, there was this big due course of behind it with this multi-stakeholder surroundings of execs out of assorted constituencies which have been drafting this.

Nana Ama Sarfo: I feel that overview was so fascinating to listen to the background behind how this tax normal began. I did not notice that U.S. personal fairness corporations had an enormous hand on this. However then additionally to listen to that it moved from that sector right into a extra multidisciplinary dialog, I feel could be very fascinating and really useful to know.

Now, as you had talked about, the GRI requirements usually and 207 have witnessed a very nice adoption, however I feel we even have to have a look at the opposite aspect of the coin, which is that the concept companies have this public accountability to share their tax information isn’t universally accepted.

Over time, we have seen some main multinationals determine to publicly share their tax information, however then others have been reluctant, citing enterprise confidentiality. What’s at stake right here if companies will not be clear about their tax exercise?

Eelco van der Enden: Tax is simply one other matter. Allow us to be completely sincere. With all introductions of latest reporting requirements, you’ll have individuals that may include the evergreens of why to not report. There are at all times those who say, “Effectively, the burden is simply too heavy. We do not prefer it, blah, blah, blah.”

Why do I feel that isn’t solely true? Why would some organizations attempt to push again on this or do not wish to report on it? There will be varied causes. There are additionally very authentic causes.

In some nations you aren’t allowed to reveal an excessive amount of data on sure contracts. We all know this from China and the Ivory Coast. You simply can not publish it. However it’s a must to have a look at this via a broader enterprise technique lens.

In case you are a big enterprise and you’ve got an ESG coverage and your ESG coverage is principally the engine that lets you decide to attaining the sustainable growth targets that everybody on this planet signed as much as, and all giant enterprise signed as much as, how do you do it? We glance extra on the surroundings. We glance extra at social matters and we glance extra at governance.

If in case you have a coverage round that, then how does tax work together with that? If you wish to be extra clear past what you might be legally obliged to do within the monetary reporting, and you’ve got endorsed, otherwise you use SASB requirements or GRI requirements, then why would not you report on tax?

As a result of tax is an ESG metric, not as a result of I say so or as a result of the World Financial Discussion board mentioned so of their 2020 report. One of many 22 core metrics to report on is tax. So what would then be the rationale? What sort of knowledge would yield extra enterprise secrets and techniques than, for instance, the technical explanations on the way you cut back your carbon emissions, which is on the core of your manufacturing processes?

Additionally considering that tax information will be extracted from annual monetary experiences filed at Chambers of Commerce with a little bit of effort, you are able to do deep dive in unstructured information, et cetera, et cetera. If in case you have this imaginative and prescient on sustainability and stakeholder-centric mannequin, why would you exclude tax? that society’s eager about tax and tax positions.

I imply, we’re ending the COVID-19 pandemic that has price states tons of and trillions of tens of millions of {dollars}. Earlier than the massive monetary disaster, we’ve seen that there are some massive issues to cowl. We have now points on local weather. We have now giant demographic points. This all must be taken care of by civil society and by governments, for which they want, in fact, tax.

They wish to see what contributions are by companies on behalf of society, and never on a consolidated foundation, but in addition principally within the communities the place you use. You don’t solely present that data as a result of Tax Justice or Oxfam is shouting off the roofs that it isn’t honest or no matter. No. You wish to share that data as a result of your suppliers, your shoppers, the communities you use in, your workers, they’re eager about that data.

What’s so delicate to not present that information? To some, there’s a very deep, politically rooted aversion to supply greater than past what’s legally obligatory. I respect that as a result of if that is your view on how issues ought to work, then that is your view on how issues ought to work. I am not making an attempt to say what morals of others needs to be. However in case you wouldn’t have this political conviction that offering information on tax is fallacious by itself, then you should have excellent arguments why to not present that data.

As a result of with regards to enterprise secrets and techniques, the key principally you cope with in tax largely is why you might be paying what you pay, and never a lot on secret formulation or aggressive worth mechanisms.

Nana Ama Sarfo: I feel you raised some actually, actually nice questions as to why multinationals would possibly oppose this and why their opposition may not make a variety of sense.

Now, I do suppose that the present debate over public tax disclosures feeds right into a a lot bigger dialogue in regards to the sort of financial system we must always have, which is some extent that you just raised earlier.

Ought to we’ve a stakeholder-centric financial system or a shareholder-centric financial system, which proper now appears to be the predominant mannequin? Is tax transparency roughly essential in a single mannequin versus the opposite?

Eelco van der Enden: I feel in each fashions it will be important. Let’s not neglect that by far the vast majority of multinational corporations play an especially honest tax recreation. Completely. They don’t have anything to cover. There’s nothing to cover. I imply, they’re a completely honest contributor to society with jobs, investments, and their tax contributions. In each fashions, it will be important, and I name {that a} “neoliberal tax paradox.”

By not paying tax as an concept to maximise your revenue over time, you will notice a variety of worth destruction of your group for the reason that surroundings you use in won’t be able to assist your online business. It is shortsighted. That is why I just like the 207 normal, as a result of it clearly exhibits what a stakeholder-centric financial mannequin means and what society does for an organization and what an organization does for society. They’re two sides of the identical coin.

Nana Ama Sarfo: Now, you had talked about that almost all multinationals are working above board. They don’t seem to be partaking in severe tax evasion, avoidance, or something like that.

Provided that, why do you suppose that there’s this persistence to carry up tax as this valuable factor that can not be revealed? That it is best for the tax neighborhood to find out what needs to be disclosed as a substitute of simply adhering to those frequent ESG requirements?

Eelco van der Enden: The explanations we hear are generally easy and really operational and really all the way down to Earth. Generally it’s not that folks do not wish to do it, however they are saying, “We simply wouldn’t have the capacities to begin this up. We wouldn’t have our methods in place to draw that data and course of it simply. It would imply an funding and I’m already understaffed.” It’s also generally an operational factor.

In terms of year-end closing, there’s a merger, there may be an acquisition, there may be some case or an investigation by tax administrations. These departments are stretched and confused after which suppose, “Oh my God, then I additionally have to have a GRI 207 report back to publish. The place the hell do I discover individuals to do it?”

That is known as a motive we hear very often, which then once more, in fact, that’s an curiosity of traders. It tells you one thing in regards to the degree and the standard of your inside controls and the effectivity of the way you handle your group. However it’s a first step.

The second we generally hear is that folks simply don’t have any clue that it does exist, they usually do not perceive the idea of sustainability reporting, monetary reporting, monetary materiality, or double materiality. These ideas will not be very well-known within the tax neighborhood, for which you can’t blame them as a result of they’re largely specialists that perceive and do an excellent job in following the legislation.

That is one thing a bit extra holistic, maybe not that concrete. There’s not a variety of interplay between civil society and the tax neighborhood. That is additionally as a result of very technical nature of tax. That’s one.

The opposite one is that some corporations simply do not wish to disclose as a result of they’re afraid that there can be a variety of turmoil out there or by the general public once they present data. All these corporations which can be reporting beneath 207 needed to take step one and like, “Oh my God, what’s going to occur after we go dwell?” Now, not one in every of them bought detrimental feedback on the experiences themselves or have been crucified within the press for publishing the data.

There have been corporations that had discussions with some NGOs on whether or not it was sound or not sound enterprise to have a hub on the Virgin Islands or that was certainly aggressive tax explaining, however a minimum of they’d a debate on details and never on notion.

This worry ingredient for a lot of seems to be fully unfaithful, and now they love publishing it and doing it, particularly the tax departments. They find it irresistible as a result of they’ve extra grip and get extra understanding for what they do.

However then as at all times, you’ve additionally some organizations, who’re actually the minority, which have such aggressive tax buildings that once they come into the open, they’ll have a severe debate with society and shareholders and traders like pension funds on, let’s name it, the ethical acceptance of the buildings in sure instances. However that can be a query of time, of rethinking your communication and your tax technique to deliver it extra consistent with your ESG technique.

Nana Ama Sarfo: That is nice to know. I additionally respect you mentioning the ideas of the materiality and double materiality, as a result of that segues into my subsequent query for you.

As you might be very nicely conscious, there’s been a variety of dialogue in regards to the idea of materiality and ESG reporting. That’s, how do corporations outline or determine materials data that needs to be disclosed? The GRI believes that materiality is double, that it’s each monetary and nonfinancial. Within the tax world, what precisely does double materiality appear to be?

Eelco van der Enden: Take a look at GRI 207. It isn’t solely the monetary information on a per-country foundation, but in addition your technique, your threat administration, and your engagement with society. In the event you have a look at varied pockets and items in the UK, submitting your tax technique is already a authorized obligation. That half is already there. Your threat administration and management framework.

In the event you fall throughout the scope of a cooperative compliance mannequin of horizontal monitoring sort of issues, it’s a must to have your tax management framework in place in any other case it is not going to work and you’ll not get your ruling or your settlement with the tax administration. That is the second pillar of 207.

The third one is your stakeholder engagement, or what do you disclose, what your cellular actions are, your relationships with NGOs, what your views are on tax as part of society, which most corporations have already included in a company communication stuff. Then it is in regards to the tax information itself. These are nonfinancial metrics, in fact, as a result of it isn’t on the stability sheet or in your revenue and loss. It is only a story behind the way you handle it, after which, in fact, you’ve per-country information that offers perception in what you say in case your technique certainly is true.

It doesn’t develop in a single day as a result of corporations reside our bodies that continuously change and transfer. That is why the story behind the information can be essential. You may have a really low tax charge for an excellent motive. You may have a really excessive tax charge for a really unhealthy motive. It’s simply explaining to society.

That’s the double materiality of 207. It’s exterior simply the monetary reporting whereby monetary materiality can be outlined as a monetizable threat of a sure magnitude that might have an effect on your rising concern.

Nana Ama Sarfo: To shut, the creation of the GRI 207 normal was a really high-profile job, however now you’ve an much more high-profile job as the brand new CEO of the GRI. I am hoping you could share for our listeners a few of your targets for advancing tax transparency within the quick and lengthy phrases.

Eelco van der Enden: The strategic goal in three phrases: alignment, alignment, alignment.

We should align with the ISSB. We should align with the Worldwide Federation of Accountants (IFAC), and we should guarantee that we may have a complete set of company reporting requirements that each handle monetary in addition to sustainability matters, ideally in a worldwide framework.

Every thing that’s potential to cooperate with ISSB and IFAC is one thing we’re pushing and pursuing. That’s what we name this two-pillar surroundings, this two-pillar technique. That’s crucial job I feel I’ve to make that occur.

On a extra operational viewpoint, as a company, it’s discovering the means certainly to keep up, assist, and make higher extra requirements on some matters that society — and society is, by the best way, politicians, and huge companies, and different constituencies that ask us to make and draft. The a part of discovering the means and the individuals to assist our group to develop the usual setting, that’s the second most essential matter.

In terms of tax, there may be certainly an amazing uptake of the 207 normal. What I want to see is that nations don’t reinvent the wheel. There’s a examined, confirmed tax transparency normal. I hope the EU is not going to begin to redesign or rethink its personal reporting requirements beneath public country-by-country reporting, or that the OECD will add to base erosion and revenue shifting 13, and issues like that. There’s a normal. Simply use it. It’s free to make use of, it’s examined, it’s broadly revered, and nicely used. So simply do it.

Nana Ama Sarfo: Effectively, Eelco, this has been a very pleasurable dialog, and thanks for shedding some gentle on this very dynamic world of ESG reporting and the way it interfaces with tax. We’re actually grateful to your time and thanks a lot for approaching the podcast.

Eelco van der Enden: Thanks very a lot. I am positive we’ll meet quickly once more.

David D. Stewart: In the event you’d prefer to study extra about van der Enden’s ideas on ESG and tax, you may try Ama’s article, “New GRI CEO Shares Imaginative and prescient on ESG Tax Disclosures.”


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